Ada Right Wrong Lucidity

Originally Posted by Meskhetyw: Well, I had a part in dragging you into this, so I'll give it a shot. Perhaps a change in terminology is in order. It has been proposed that "mindfulness" could be used, but this is also a blanket term. Many are familiar with the Buddhist Vipassana meditation and "mindfulness throughout daily activities", but there is a much older and more complete system (5,000 years old) of Yoga (not the exercise), which teaches mindfulness of the environment, the ten senses, the body, the breath, and ever more inward to thoughts, the subconscious, Dream Yoga, and Yoga Nidra. The idea is similar, the moment is observed ever more precisely and things are set aside as being "not self". I was under the impression that the majority of people here are using a form of awareness that is merely environmental with perhaps some thought observing mixed in, as many posts seem to suggest, so all day awareness seemed an appropriate term for this and for other reasons. Regardless however, I suppose we should be clear in each case which form of awareness or mindfulness we are referring to. Perhaps using the addition "mindfulness of ....." will suffice. The potential of this thread is to understand the mechanisms which allow for certain of these practices to bring about lucidity or to hinder it, and because of this I hope that people will share their views on any or all of these. I have had most success with Dream Yoga, but I have read Sageous's self awareness method and it seems to work without the need for a constant emphasis on dreaming. Zoth has mentioned mindfulness and seems to think that it has a positive impact on lucidity. I'd be interested in hearing more of this. Why these things work is worth exploring, so that we can as lucid dreamers make our practices more efficient. -------- That would be an interesting change of subject, I think, and actually it might help, in that in describing other forms of awareness in a positive vein, we might open make some headway. That said: As I developed simple practices to build self-awareness, I came up with a sort of reverse-RC (as noted in my WILD class as a RRC). Instead of taking the RC path of asking yourself if you are dreaming, you ask yourself where you just were, where you are, and where you will be shortly, and you do so with a real sense of wonder about your interaction with your local reality as you did/will do these things. I go into greater detail on the exercise here, if you're curious. Why does this help? Because it establishes a sense of your involvement in reality, that you have an effect on it, and it on you. If you can develop this sense into a sort of intuition, come dream time that sense will help you to intuitively accept the nature of your dream as a part of your self, and from that will come an easier path to lucidity and control without confusing preconceptions. I go into much more detail on this in the class, but essentially I'm saying that if you become intuitively aware of your interaction with reality, and are able to honestly ponder your interaction with it, you will have no trouble recognizing your presence in a dream, and remembering that the dream is you ... the rest is sheer lucidity. That's extremely brief, I know, but I'm pressed for time right now ... hopefully others will chime in? Regarding changing the term: I think for the sake of argument that King Yoshi pretty much nailed what we were describing with ADA; it would be difficult to use something else, even when discussing the "merely environmental" ADA that seems to be prevalent on these forums. Though mindfulness is a good term, it does have a religious ring to it, I think, and it also encompasses so many different types -- and grades -- of practice, we might do more harm than good using it. Can't think of another term other than MEADA, though!

Originally Posted by tofur: I re-read your post and when I think back to the couple of lucids I've had so far, all have been DILDS, and they were spontaneous. I didn't see something and think "thats not possible, this must be a dream". It was like BAM, randomly totally awake, and THEN the "holy s#*#, this is a dream". What made me snap out of it I can't say, there was plenty going on there before hand to tip me off and in one I became lucid in the most realistic setting possible in that dream. So basically, the awareness showed up after the random moment of awakening, not before. So I guess the trick is to figure out what causes that change over -------- Most if not all of my DILD's work this way as well. I think personally that this sort of "spontaneous" lucidity isn't really so spontaneous at all. Rather, it is a result of your waking-life attitudes (i.e., you're open to being lucid in the first place) and perhaps expectations you might not be consciously harboring ... in other words, you desired lucidity, and your unconscious obliged. As I think CosmicIron already mentioned, in that the mechanics involved in the forming of this spontaneous DILD are still not too clear, but I truly believe they lie not in mysterious functions of the dreaming mind, but in the nature and attitudes of the waking-life consciousness. Developing that attitude ought to be possible then.

Originally Posted by Sageous: Water under the bridge? -------- I hope so I know Sageous has spent considerable time answering my questions and numerous other's questions and I see that KingYoshi has answered numerous questions as well over the years. They have that in common: attempting to help others on their quest for regular lucidity. I have not practiced ADA or at least not as described in the OP but I would like to add that further debate on this could potentially come to a consensus on what will help those seeking regular lucid dreams. Most methods related to ADA, awareness, mindfulness, etc, require a good amount of time and dedication and it would be good to know if they are beneficial to lucid dreaming if that is all that someone is looking for in practicing the methods.

Originally Posted by Sageous: For what it's worth: I just read the OP of King Yoshi's ADA/DILD tutorial and it seems it lines up nicely with the ADA as noted in my OP here. Also it pretty much parallels with "ADA" as its been practiced in the form of mindfulness and other meditative practices for centuries; no difference whatsoever, except that it is attached as a technique to LD'ing. So yeah, I guess we were debating, specifically, a portion of King Yoshi's DILD technique... had I known, I would have not done the thread or at least warned you (king Yoshi) of its posting. But here we are, regardless, and after a night's sleep I still think there is much to be discussed... So your defenses are quite welcome, as they ever were. Only now in my opinion they are directly on topic -- whether I was aware that you coined ADA or not, since it seems I knew exactly what I was talking about in the OP, regardless of my ignorance of the DV-specific history. As it turns out, we never needed to have that exchange last night ... I should have taken the high road and stopped to read your tutorial then, I guess. My bad; it was late and I was very tired. Water under the bridge? -------- I could've taken the higher road as well. Even though I try not to bring it to the forums, I have a fiery, competitive personality that sometimes bleeds through in a non-competitive atmosphere. Even so, I never felt any hostility toward you and looked at the situation as more of a misunderstanding. Though, I still felt you should have handled/prepared for this thread differently prior to making it. So, I wasn't exactly going to give any free passes. Its all good though. On the note about mindfulness...mindfulness deals with spirituality, self discovery, etc. All that nonsense is left out of ADA, this is simply for lucid dreaming. There are many differences in the mindset that you have going into ADA. In the way it was designed, its made specifically for lucid dreaming and is 100% effective. I have yet to go 1-on-1 with a dreamer that didn't have success with the technique. Originally Posted by fogelbise: I hope so I know Sageous has spent considerable time answering my questions and numerous other's questions and I see that KingYoshi has answered numerous questions as well over the years. They have that in common: attempting to help others on their quest for regular lucidity. I have not practiced ADA or at least not as described in the OP but I would like to add that further debate on this could potentially come to a consensus on what will help those seeking regular lucid dreams. Most methods related to ADA, awareness, mindfulness, etc, require a good amount of time and dedication and it would be good to know if they are beneficial to lucid dreaming if that is all that someone is looking for in practicing the methods. -------- It IS very beneficial. Like I previously stated, I have yet to go 1 on 1 with a dreamer who has not had success with ADA. If you have any problems while practicing the technique, come to me, and I guarantee you we will hammer out success. This thing works. I've proven it with my own success as well as the success of the countless dreamers in my thread and in my PM box. Its not like something that is on the fence about whether it works or not, which is why I see no point in this thread. It works. Period.

Originally Posted by KingYoshi: It IS very beneficial. Like I previously stated, I have yet to go 1 on 1 with a dreamer who has not had success with ADA. If you have any problems while practicing the technique, come to me, and I guarantee you we will hammer out success. This thing works. I've proven it with my own success as well as the success of the countless dreamers in my thread and in my PM box. Its not like something that is on the fence about whether it works or not, which is why I see no point in this thread. It works. Period. -------- Okay, then let's try to give the thread a point. Assuming that we all accept that your ADA technique works, can you, per Meskhetyw's suggestion above, tell us why you think it works? Maybe then we can get to the core of what works/what doesn't work, and what mental processes are involved... okay, we might at least head for that core!

yoshi whats your take on spontaneous lucidity? where there's no apparent lead up to it in terms of heightened awareness, you go from ordinary dream consciousness to awake in the dream randomly and for no obvious reason. What do you think is responsible for that? are most of your dilds like that?

Ok, quickly before the Braves game starts. I'm going to include excerpts from the written technique as well. Simply because it is faster. I'll go ahead and go into in-depth, "guru" mode since you guys are twisting my arm . I usually don't got this in-depth outside of a PM question/assistance or my actual thread. You bastards j/k . ADA for achieving lucidity: "If you don't have good awareness in waking life, how do you expect to have good awareness in your dreams?" "At first, you will have to force yourself to be completely aware of your surroundings. The idea, is to try and become aware of absolutely EVERYTHING around you. After practicing ADA for a while, you will start to become aware of theses subtleties without forcing yourself. As you practice more and more, you will notice the subtleties being noticed quite naturally with little effort. Eventually, you will get to where you are no longer practicing All Day Awareness, you are actually living it. It will become natural for you. Once you have reached this level of awareness, the dream itself becomes your dream sign. Every thing you notice within the dream will become your RC." Building awareness of your surroundings in waking life carries over into the dream state. So, once you get to the point that you are practicing ADA regularly and naturally, the same is going to happen in your dreams. Sageous, you stated earlier that everyone already has awareness in their dreams. While that is partially true, their level of awareness is the same in their dreams as in waking life. In waking life, if you look at a wall and simply see the wall in the "take it for granted" sense, then you are going to do the same in your dream. In an actual dream, however, that wall is nothing more than a creation of your mind. It can be solid, liquid, gas, or nothing at all, because it is truly nothing but a thought. With ADA, you get out of this "day walking" by increasing your awareness in waking life. You are noticing everything and recognizing that wall for what it truly is. Your mind learns "this wall is a wall BECAUSE I am in reality right now" without even thinking specifically about. Your entire environment is becoming your RC. Not just walls, but everything around you. In a dream, once you increase that awareness, your environment is not going to "feel" the same. Nothing around you is grounded in reality and you are training yourself to notice this difference. This isn't something that can be found in books or even in the knowledge of your average genius. Its something that only a lucid dreamer can understand. Its abstract and needs to be experienced to fully understand what I mean when I say "it feels like a dream." ADA provides that ability. I've been at this for a long time and not in the same sense as most, as I have been using this in the specialty format (recreational lucid dreaming only). I don't doubt there are other benefits for mindfulness and awareness, but I'm purposely not allowing my body or mind to take advantage of these benefits or even acknowledge them for that matter. This, I 100% believe, is the key to being permanently lucid. Day walking excerpt for those who don't know/understand my terminology: "Lets take for instance, you are walking your dog down the street. Be aware of everything around you. Hear your footsteps against the pavement, feel the cushion in the sole of your shoes contract with each step. Feel the muscles working in your legs as you stroll along, see your eyelids blinking, hear the sound of your breathing, feel your lungs expanding and your chest moving as you breath in and out. Smell the air as you travel through the neighborhood. Does it change? Does every breeze smell the exact same? Feel your tongue as it casually rests on the bottom of your mouth. Every structure around you has a shadow...do you notice them? Hear the pitter patter of the dogs feet, do you hear him panting? Most people hold the leash and walk down the sidewalk completely lost in their thoughts. Most don't even notice the control they are using to power their own legs. You are sitting at the computer doing math homework. Feel the keys below your fingertips, notice how effortlessly your fingers fly from one key to the next without even having to think about the upcoming letter/keystroke. While you were reading the previous two sentences, did you take for granted the blinking process. What all sounds have you heard while you have been reading this tutorial? What does the air smell like? You shouldn't have to smell right now to answer the question. Have you noticed the shadows of everything around you? How about your lungs? Have you noticed them expanding and your chest moving. Have you noticed the air traveling up through your windpipe, across your tongue and passed your lips? These are just a few of the millions of small details that the average person takes for granted or doesn't even bother to notice. It is almost like everyone is sleep walking while they are awake. If you don't have good awareness in waking life, how do you expect to have good awareness in your dreams?" ADA for Recall: "Not only does awareness help strive toward lucidity, but it also helps with recall. As you continue to practice ADA, it will start to carry over in your dreams. Even if you aren't getting lucid yet, you will start paying more attention to the dream environment. Making mental notes of what you see, hear, feel, taste, and smell. This will help make dreams much easier to recall upon waking up from sleep. It will also help you recall more details from your dream. Soon you will be having detailed journal entries that read almost like a story as opposed to a scattered series of events that jump around from place to place." Increasing awareness in waking life increases awareness in your dream, we have established that. If you are naturally paying more attention to the dream and noticing things around you, you are implanting those memories and things you notice more firmly into your mind. Upon waking up, your increased awareness in that previous dream has provided you with enhanced recall. Think about it like this, you are at a bar, drunk, and sleepy. Your awareness is going to be shit. As soon as you walk outside you write down everything you remember about the table of people right beside you who didn't interact with. You are going to remember almost nothing. Now, the same thing happens to a sober guy who is a normal human and "day walking" like the rest of the population. He is probably going to recall a bit more than the drunk guy, but maybe not. Now, take a guy who was in the bar practicing ADA the entire time. He is going to have an enormous advantage in recall of that table if he was, in fact, practicing ADA correctly. Ridiculous amounts of detail are possible. The brain is powerful enough to have photographic memory and store those memories. Not saying ADA is going to give you photographic memory, but it is, 100%, going to enhance recall. ADA for Dream Control: Take everything you have read and keep it in mind as I speak here. Your awareness has increased from ADA practice, therefore your mind understands much better than a typical dreamer that these things in your dreams, all of these things around you are nothing but creations of your mind. The better you get at ADA the more your mind naturally understands and accepts these things. This allows the success rate of your techniques for dream manipulation to blast through the roof. Most dreamers look at something and say, "Its a dream so I can control this with my mind." Saying it and even thinking it, is not the same as truly 100% believing it and expecting it. So, while at times it does work to say something out loud and use another similar trick to get dream control to work, ADA improves the root of why these tricks work. With ADA, instead of saying these things, your training your brain to know and 100% understand these things at all times. It helps boost those little tips and tricks that we all use to manipulate the dream (without us even noticing why things are working better and more frequently). ADA doesn't help provide better tricks, it helps increase the effectiveness of ALL tricks. My dream control and recall and at a much higher level these days than before I started ADA. You can see the impact that ADA made on my dreams by looking through my old dream journal from beginning to end (not recommended, it is A LOT of dreams, but you can take my word for it ). ADA for prolonging the dream experience, staying lucid & stabilization: The number one way to prolong a lucid dream (aside from time dilation/manipulation if you believe in that), is staying immersed within the dream state and keeping "disconnected" from your actual body. If you have advanced awareness, you are always going to be more locked-in to the dream environment than someone who doesn't. Your awareness and ADA carries into this dream state and keeps you constantly involved in dream activity, because noticing your environment better IS dream activity. On top of that, your awareness boost allows you to keep a much firmer grip on your lucidity. If you have great awareness from ADA practice, you are going to be "feeling" the dream at all times. You are "resonating" with your environment and experience as you are exploring your dream. Its much harder to forget you are lucid even while playing into the "dreams hands." By this, I am referring to my own style of dream exploration. I'm always playing along with my dream plots and treating the dream world as if it is another alternate, true life (even though I don't believe this or get into BD aspects). This allows for my dreams to play out as more coherent adventures and create consistencies from dream to dream. Making it possible to continue dream plots and overarching stories from dream to dream. Its why my DJ is set-up in dream series' (kind of like tv series') and I'm able to create an epic that s across many dreams. Stabilization is nothing more than a form of dream control. So, see dream control for why it also helps boost stabilization. Now, you aren't going to start ADA and immediately become a dream master, but you WILL notice results soon. The better you get at ADA and the more natural you become at performing it, the better it will help in all of these areas. If you can get to the point that you are in a constant All Day Awareness state of mind, you will become forever lucid. That is my goal, but I'm a long way from that. Edit: @tofur - even for someone who doesn't practice ADA, they can randomly "feel" that dream state. It just feels like they are in a dream, so they realize they are. You don't even notice this most of the time, your mind has experience the waking state and dream state your whole life. You are walking around and, BAM your lucid for no reason. Well, whether you realize it or not, your mind figured out it was a dream simply because it knew it wasn't reality. ADA and awareness helps to make this a regular thing. Almost all of my DILDs are because I just suddenly know I'm in a dream for no other apparent reason than that "this feels like a dream." Everyone has the ability to just randomly become lucid, its how many of us became lucid without prior knowledge to what lucid dreaming even was.

n the note about mindfulness...mindfulness deals with spirituality, self discovery, etc. All that nonsense is left out of ADA -------- You should try doing some research before stating things like that. They couldn't be more far than the truth. As I stated before, I do think the technique works, but I'm more interested on why it works, and I thought that was what we were discussing. Besides, let's clear one thing here: It's not quite simple to determine the cause for lucidity in a DILD. In fact, it can be many times impossible. Spontaneous lucidity isn't something random: it actually refers to things like insight, some memory or event altering your perspective, and this doesn't need to happen in a conscious level. The areas of the brain active during a lucid dream don't turn themselves "on" just because. Your awareness has increased from ADA practice, therefore your mind understands much better than a typical dreamer that these things in your dreams, all of these things around you are nothing but creations of your mind. -------- What are we defining as awareness here? Sageous, you stated earlier that everyone already has awareness in their dreams. While that is partially true, their level of awareness is the same in their dreams as in waking life. -------- No it's not. You can't define awareness as a constant degree of sensory perception. Or if we are talking about other meaning for awareness, it is isn't constant or immutable. Upon waking up, your increased awareness in that previous dream has provided you with enhanced recall. -------- Completely disagree. The fact that you don't remember your dreams is not because you aren't aware of them. Notice that I was the person who mentioned "better recall" with ADA, but you don't backup your argument with anything that seems valid. Not saying ADA is going to give you photographic memory, but it is, 100%, going to enhance recall. -------- How do you know it's not other factor? Your topic seems full of assumptions based on anecdotal evidence. There's no harm in believing something, but being 100% sure? Hmmm.... I hope you don't view this reply as a personal attack King Yoshi, because the only interest I have in this thread is healthy discussion (even if it means you and I are going to disagree fiercely), but your position seems to rely on assumptions based on your experience. On the other hand, I might be talking like we're all a bunch of scientists that forgot to test their techniques in the laboratory....I must say that I can't help but think that the majority of lucid dreaming techniques that are invented might even work, but why? No one knows lol, because besides the old techniques like MILD, reality checks, visualization, tholey method, none of the others were actually tested.

Originally Posted by Zoth: You should try doing some research before stating things like that. They couldn't be more far than the truth. Besides, let's clear one thing here: It's not quite simple to determine the cause for lucidity in a DILD. In fact, it can be many times impossible. Spontaneous lucidity isn't something random: it actually refers to things like insight, some memory or event altering your perspective, and this doesn't need to happen in a conscious level. The areas of the brain active during a lucid dream don't turn themselves "on" just because. -------- See, I don't need to do the research because it has already been done. Its already up here (points at head). Long before these new age lucid dreamers. I've been here for a long time and been doing this for a long time, so slow down young one. THE definition of mindfulness' first line = "Mindfulness (Pali: sati,[1] Sanskrit: smti; also translated as awareness) is a spiritual or psychological faculty (indriya) that, according to the teaching of the Buddha, is considered to be of great importance in the path to enlightenment ." Its a Buddhist practice that I am SUPER familiar with. Whether your view of mindfulness is different from this, is none of my concern. Do not tell me I'm wrong because your version of mindfulness is different from the definition, lol. I don't believe in enlightenment, beings, or any spiritual things so I'm not going to go into mindfulness with you. I know what it is, and to me, everything except for its basic awareness is crap. Not saying its impossible, but I'm not into. I don't judge anyone who is and I still hold respect for them. I'm into things that other aren't so I understand. As for your second part, WTF are you talking about? Of course it isn't random. Are you even reading my posts? Your mind is not randomly becoming lucid, it is feeling that you are in a dream as opposed to lucidity, whether you realize it or not. Your mind can distinguish reality from a dream, naturally. ADA helps you do this even more often. Its not random and nothing I ever said implied that I thought it was. C'mon Dream Guide. Edit: Look Zoth, if you want to know what kind of awareness I'm talking about, GO READ MY TUTORIAL. It is explained in great detail. I just explained in great detail why and how ADA helps with recall and it IS awareness. Have you been practicing testing and experimenting with ADA in direct correlation to lucid dreaming for years? Do you have 100s and 100s of lucid dreams from using no other technique but ADA? This isn't nonsense I'm spitting, dude. This is research and experience. No one knows why these techniques work? LOL. Sorry, bro, YOU don't know why they work. DOn't speak for everyone else. I get people lucid because I don't just tell them what to do, I explain why these things work. I don't lucid dream blindly, I figure out why something works and test it over and over and over again. No offense to the other DGs, but how in the fuck did you become a Dream Guide? This is coming from a former Dream Guide Leader. Sad. Also, you discredited my statements that had backing and didn't even provide a reason. You said, "The fact that you don't remember your dreams is not because you aren't aware of them." And that is it, LMAO. Because you say it makes it true, even without explaining why? Who do you think you are? You are in the most important position on the site, as a Dream Guide, and you are sitting here spitting ridiculous nonsense as if you are a random noob troll? Wow, dude. Wow.

so slow down young one -------- Don't take this personally, but let's abstain from these particular comments, either directed to me, any other member, or even you. This is valid for everyone in this thread to make sure the discussion doesn't turn into a flaming war. Thanks See, I don't need to do the research because it has already been done. I've been here for a long time and been doing this for a long time, so slow down young one. THE definition of mindfulness' first line = "Mindfulness (Pali: sati,[1] Sanskrit: smti; also translated as awareness) is a spiritual or psychological faculty (indriya) that, according to the teaching of the Buddha, is considered to be of great importance in the path to enlightenment ." -------- You're linking wikipedia as an argument for research? When I say research, I actually mean going beyond googling mindfulness. It isn't necessarily linked to spirituality. But you seem to only know the concept of mindfulness related to it. Once again, I encourage you to do some research it is feeling that you are in a dream as opposed to lucidity, whether you realize it or not. -------- So you know it in an unconscious level? How do you backup this claim of yours? What is this feeling? Your mind knows it is a dream, but you don't? Then how do you know it knows?

Should I mention that I'm in my 50's, and have been actively LD'ing -- and researching it from more sources than my head -- for probably longer than you've been alive, King Yoshi? And I swear Zoth is older than me sometimes! We're not all kids here, and to me the "New Age" happened in the late '70's, so you might want to grab another term, so as not to confuse us old farts... Sorry, Zoth; just sayin'

Actually, I know exactly what KingYoshi is talking about when he talks of this feeling that it is a dream, even though rationally you may not have quite realized it yet. It's like you have noticed stuff, which adds up to it being a dream, but you have not added up all the parts yet, and so if someone asked you why did you know it was a dream when you did, you might not be able to explain it, but of course there were reasons because you noticed stuff that only made sense as a dream.

Originally Posted by Zoth: Don't take this personally, but let's abstain from these particular comments, either directed to me, any other member, or even you. This is valid for everyone in this thread to make sure the discussion doesn't turn into a flaming war. Thanks -------- You're linking wikipedia as an argument for research? When I say research, I actually mean going beyond googling mindfulness. It isn't necessarily linked to spirituality. But you seem to only know the concept of mindfulness related to it. Once again, I encourage you to do some research -------- So you know it in an unconscious level? How do you backup this claim of yours? What is this feeling? Your mind knows it is a dream, but you don't? Then how do you know it knows? -------- I know my mind knows because I have felt it. I have been living and breathing ADA and everything about it in regard to lucid dreaming for years. You haven't so you clearly do not understand the feeling of being in a completely normal dream when your mind begins to "feel" the dream and you become lucid. The dream state feels different in every sense than waking life once you get deep into ADA. How do I know? Because I am doing it and have been doing. Ask the 100s of dreamers that have become lucid from ADA. Everything I know about lucid dreaming including mindfulness aspects, come from experience. As in, I, personally, explore and researched these things from WITHIN THE DREAM. I didn't READ IT and assume it to be true. Do some research? How about you do some REAL research. As in, field research. As in, becoming lucid and explore these things from the source. Not reading what everyone else has written and suddenly claiming it to be true. Dreaming is not fact. There is NO written material from anyone that I will believe until lI prove it myself from with the dream world. Go do some REAL research rookie. I love how you are trying to act responsible now that you are called out on your incompetence as a Dream Guide. This is no flame, its actually very disheartening to me. Originally Posted by Sageous: Should I mention that I'm in my 50's, and have been actively LD'ing -- and researching it from more sources than my head -- for probably longer than you've been alive, King Yoshi? And I swear Zoth is older than me sometimes! We're not all kids here, and to me the "New Age" happened in the late '70's, so you might want to grab another term, so as not to confuse us old farts... Sorry, Zoth; just sayin' -------- I'm clearly not talking to or about you. I know how old you are and how experienced you are. So, save these useless comments for the birds. New Age for lucid dreaming was not in the 70's in my eyes. Yours maybe, but not mine. So, I stand by it. And Zoth, is ignorant. Period. Not unintelligent, not stupid, but ignorant by its intended definition. Not by the insult. How is a source other than your own experience within the dream, even valid to you? You seriously listen to someone talk about lucid dreaming and believe them without testing their knowledge or at the very least, testing how their knowledge could be true? Sorry, but my head is all I need for sources on lucid dreaming. If you think that is wrong, tell that to the 100s of dreamers who have used my experience along the way.

Originally Posted by JoannaB: Actually, I know exactly what KingYoshi is talking about when he talks of this feeling that it is a dream, even though rationally you may not have quite realized it yet. It's like you have noticed stuff, which adds up to it being a dream, but you have not added up all the parts yet, and so if someone asked you why did you know it was a dream when you did, you might not be able to explain it, but of course there were reasons because you noticed stuff that only made sense as a dream. -------- see but what I don't get is, what is that "you" that hasn't added it all up yet, the "you" that is noticing stuff? I feel like were talking about two different aspects of consciousness here, the part that is witnessing everything, and the other part that wakes up because of the witnessing. So maybe what were doing with the awareness training is stabilizing ourselves more and more as that witness, the observer rather than the doer.

Originally Posted by Sageous: Should I mention that I'm in my 50's, and have been actively LD'ing -- and researching it from more sources than my head -- for probably longer than you've been alive, King Yoshi? And I swear Zoth is older than me sometimes! We're not all kids here, and to me the "New Age" happened in the late '70's, so you might want to grab another term, so as not to confuse us old farts... Sorry, Zoth; just sayin' -------- Originally Posted by tofur: see but what I don't get is, what is that "you" that hasn't added it all up yet, the "you" that is noticing stuff? I feel like were talking about two different aspects of consciousness here, the part that is witnessing everything, and the other part that wakes up because of the witnessing. So maybe what were doing with the awareness training is stabilizing ourselves more and more as that witness, the observer rather than the doer. -------- More like bringing them together as one. The mind is complex and very abstract. Its hard to describe these things with words. Its more of a feeling.

Sorry JoannaB, I go one more ego burst, as the following must be said: Originally Posted by KingYoshi: I'm clearly not talking to or about you. I know how old you are and how experienced you are. So, save these useless comments for the birds. New Age for lucid dreaming was not in the 70's in my eyes. Yours maybe, but not mine. So, I stand by it. And Zoth, is ignorant. Period. Not unintelligent, not stupid, but ignorant by its intended definition. Not by the insult. -------- You'd think I would have learned my lesson yesterday... okay, Yoshi, I promise to no longer toss your way any snarky comments, sarcasm, or anything even suggesting humor or -- God forgive me -- speaking to you as an equal. In other words I promise not to speak to you as you do to us, as you seem to take it very poorly. You spoke as if you were speaking to all of us, BTW, not so clearly at all. --------: How is a source other than your own experience within the dream, even valid to you? You seriously listen to someone talk about lucid dreaming and believe them without testing their knowledge or at the very least, testing how their knowledge could be true? Sorry, but my head is all I need for sources on lucid dreaming. If you think that is wrong, tell that to the 100s of dreamers who have used my experience along the way. -------- Did I say I believe everything I read? Did I say I never test new knowledge against my experience? I don't think so. And, if getting knowledge from places other than your head is no good, why are you here? Surely those 100's of satisfied dreamers should have learned on their own, right? Sorry again for the interruption, folks; hopefully we can get back to work now.

Originally Posted by JoannaB: I think this thread suffers from the too many egos in one place problem, which is a shame because the topic is of great interest, and we have some smart people here who are deeply committed to helping others and getting it right. And the egos get in the way. Sigh. -------- I think the thread got back on the right track and is currently only slightly limping. Discussion of Tofur's question could also further right the ship. This is where I felt Zoth was coming from: Originally Posted by Zoth: I hope you don't view this reply as a personal attack King Yoshi, because the only interest I have in this thread is healthy discussion (even if it means you and I are going to disagree fiercely), but your position seems to rely on assumptions based on your experience. --------:

Examples of similar phenomenon to dream "feeling": Some mothers can tell by their baby's cry whether it is hungry or wet or whatever. They may not be able to describe the difference to you, and may not know what they notice, but they do. Experienced fishkeepers can watch an aquarium, and can tell that there may be a water quality issue. If asked to describe it to you, they may be able to say a few things like that the fish were not acting like they usually do, but they might not be able to describe it well because it is more about the overall observation of the tank where after watching the tank carefully for many years, they just can tell. What they observe may include fish moving about more or less, less frisky, fish being a different shade of color / less shiny, aquatic plants not looking healthy, fish breathing more heavily, etc., but they may not be able to tell you each of those things they observed, but rather might say that the aquarium looked like it does when the water quality is wrong. Sometimes you can tell someone else is lying, but might be hard pressed to tell why, but some people are good at this. They of course must be observing things like maybe hesitancy in the other's voice, maybe sweating, maybe fidgeting, maybe not making eye contact, but they may or may not be able to enumerate these observations to you, but instead will say they just knew he was lying.

Originally Posted by JoannaB: Examples of similar phenomenon to dream "feeling": Some mothers can tell by their baby's cry whether it is hungry or wet or whatever. They may not be able to describe the difference to you, and may not know what they notice, but they do. Experienced fishkeepers can watch an aquarium, and can tell that there may be a water quality issue. If asked to describe it to you, they may be able to say a few things like that the fish were not acting like they usually do, but they might not be able to describe it well because it is more about the overall observation of the tank where after watching the tank carefully for many years, they just can tell. What they observe may include fish moving about more or less, less frisky, fish being a different shade of color / less shiny, aquatic plants not looking healthy, fish breathing more heavily, etc., but they may not be able to tell you each of those things they observed, but rather might say that the aquarium looked like it does when the water quality is wrong. Sometimes you can tell someone else is lying, but might be hard pressed to tell why, but some people are good at this. They of course must be observing things like maybe hesitancy in the other's voice, maybe sweating, maybe fidgeting, maybe not making eye contact, but they may or may not be able to enumerate these observations to you, but instead will say they just knew he was lying. -------- sounds like intuition to me, maybe someone who's more intuitive by nature is more adept at LD'ing, picks it up quicker with less effort?

I am not sure that intuition is right. It's got more to do with careful observation and noticing details on a not entirely conscious level which someone else would have missed but the experienced observer does not. And that's why ADA and dream feeling go hand in hand because when one trains oneself to be an experienced observer, one learns to notice stuff others would have missed. And the things one notices may be stuff like that gravity is not exactly the same or that you passed the same person three times. And I am not suggesting here that in dreams we do not render stuff perfectly because we can, but sometimes we might not. And I think an experienced ADA practitioner will train him- or herself to notice things so that if anything is off in a way that might be due to dream, then some part of their mind notices it. And it may be something different every time that they notice, and it most likely will be a combination of stuff. And while one's mind is capable of flawlessly reproducing reality in dreams, but sometimes it does not, or it will reproduce some details but not others. And the trained observer's mind will recognize that, and while you could say it will recognize these things off "intuitively" but I don't think there is any sixth sense involved and I do believe with ADA anyone can learn to do this though it would require a lot of effort. Edit: the sad thing is that I think I used to have this ability. At least I remember recognizing dreams as dreams by this kind of "feeling" twenty years ago. Why oh why did I give this up? I want to regain this. I need to concentrate more on ADA.

Originally Posted by Sageous: I think JoannaB's and King Yoshi have this pegged, but I had an additional thought: -------- That may be exactly my problem with "natural" awareness training, because driving you to become just a witness may be an unintended and unwanted side-effect of awareness-only training. Yes, becoming only that witness makes the dream world more stable, but it also makes it more real, and your dream less lucid. As King Yoshi said, you must remember that the observer part of you and the witness part of you (and the dreaming mind part of you, for that matter) are all you, and must be smoothly combined into one self-aware "You." If you only witness, then you sacrifice the union of all aspects of "You," and risk lapsing back into a NLD or waking up. However: -------- I think of it less natural intuition than a "sense" built into your consciousness that can sort of put it all together, at least at a very low, almost subliminal level. This sense need not be natural; indeed, I have a feeling that, except in children, this sense is far more often artificially infused through training than it is natural. Perhaps that is the real value of ADA, as it both teaches you to have a special sense of your surroundings while, thanks to the constant practice with LD'ing in mind, building powerful expectations of having LD's. So, come dreamtime, your unconscious is already hard at work fulfilling your expectations while your ADA "habit" has got your DC "you" paying slightly elevated attention. Then, once the "feeling" is in place, your self-awareness and memory kick in and Bam!, you're lucid. Hmm... Did I just turn back on myself to accidentally summarize the real value of ADA as LD'ing tool? Seems to all make sense...or am I just babbling? -------- I know how, but I don't understand why the argument got escalated in the first place because its not like we are THAT far off from looking at this the same way. This sounds like you are getting it and made valid statements. As for the "more real" part you mentioned, that doesn't mean you have to be less lucid. I don't get into BD, but I simply pretend as if the dream state is another reality (to an extent). By using the dream world to my advantage, I'm able to accomplish my goals and hold on to my lucidity no matter how real it seems. The ADA helps you know its a dream and hold on to your lucidity even if you aren't actively trying to remember this fact. I'm not saying its a magical cure for every dream problem, but it helps out and boosts in a ridiculous amount of areas. These days, it is the only technique I use for lucid dreaming besides DJing. Not counting DEILD chains, of course. I'm not saying its for everyone, but there is no way it can be detrimental to lucid dreaming.

^^ The evidence is definitely leaning, for me, in the "undetrimental" direction. But I'm still of the mind that there is a hazard to having ADA be the only tool in your belt ... Keep in mind, King Yoshi, that given your experience, you already very likely have a whole beltful of tools on hand (ie, that "feeling" we were all just discussing). In other words, I'm coming to the conclusion that ADA can be a powerful tool for LD'ing but, like all powerful tools it needs to be handled well and plugged into something... which I think you just said. Holy crap, are we in some sort of agreement here? Were we always in some sort of agreement? Communication is a helluva thing, isn't it? --------

Originally Posted by Sageous: ^^ The evidence is definitely leaning, for me, in the "undetrimental" direction. But I'm still of the mind that there is a hazard to having ADA be the only tool in your belt ... Keep in mind, King Yoshi, that given your experience, you already very likely have a whole beltful of tools on hand (ie, that "feeling" we were all just discussing). In other words, I'm coming to the conclusion that ADA can be a powerful tool for LD'ing but, like all powerful tools it needs to be handled well and plugged into something... which I think you just said. Holy crap, are we in some sort of agreement here? Were we always in some sort of agreement? Communication is a helluva thing, isn't it? Well, I can agree about the numerous tools. I tell newbies all the time to soak up as much quality information as possible and never be afraid to experiment with other's techniques and mold them to fit their own mind. That feeling though, came from ADA practice. I didn't really have it regularly before, I suppose as much as any other LDer who get spontaneously lucid. The feeling comes from ADA practice and grows with your experience with the technique. I'm also able to WILD very well amongst other things, so my mind has gotten used to lucidity much more than the average user on this site (though still less than some, of course). I'm not saying it should be your only technique, but I'll always recommend it as the foundation for lucid practice. We were always in some sort of agreement, not from the beginning, but after the first misunderstanding anyway. Some became distracted by perceived arrogance and lost sight of the matter at hand. While another probably milked it a bit after noticing that frustration to clear some of their own frustrations. It happens. There is a saying my buddies and I always had growing up, "I'm not cocky, just confident." Of course, it was said in a jokingly misleading manner, but the statement was always true.

After reading through all the posts, I cannot shake the feeling that some people are making too many assumptions without evaluating them carefully. For example, the assumption that one gains lucidty by spotting oddities in dreams. As I mentioned in my previous post, it appears that LDs triggered in this fashion are actually relatively rare. Moreover, in dreams we don't often possess the full memories, reasoning skills, and even personalities as in waking state. In fact it is not unusual for us to act like another person in dreams. This is actually not surprising because dreams are the language of the unconscious. Often than not the dream ego itself gets assigned symbolic meanings and act according to some predetermined plots. In this case, to the dream ego, there are no oddities in the dreams, just like how our waking ego perceive the so-called real world. Granted there are times our dream ego become detached from dream plots and act independently similar to the awakened state, but that's not the majority. That is but one of the many examples which led me to question the validity of some of the theories we take for granted. Again I'm not drawing conclusions but I'm kinda hoping this thread will provoke people to think outside of the boxes. Lucid dreams are triggered/improved by awareness, and since some technique improves awareness it ought to work for lucid dreams -- we have heard this line way too many times and it is not even worth repeating or defending anymore IMHO.

Originally Posted by CosmicIron: After reading through all the posts, I cannot shake the feeling that some people are making too many assumptions without evaluating them carefully. For example, the assumption that one gains lucidty by spotting oddities in dreams. As I mentioned in my previous post, it appears that LDs triggered in this fashion are actually relatively rare. -------- I agree with this. ADA isn't about spotting oddities at all. Its about creating the awareness to distinguish between the waking state and the dream state, simply because they are not the same as each other. Its about building up a mental "feeling" that causes you to realize you are dreaming simply because you are not awake. I can't think of a better word to describe it because you don't physically feel it, but you kind of get washed over with lucidity. Still not a good way to describe it. Its very hard to put into words for someone who hasn't experienced it before to understand. The best thing I can tell you is to try ADA, specifically for lucid dreaming, so you can experience it for yourself. I do seem to just randomly become lucid, but its a constant thing and I find myself looking at a completely normal environment and thinking to myself, "This is a dream. This feels like a dream." Even if nothing out of the ordinary has happened the entire time. Its not just a sporadic event either, this is how I become lucid 15-20 times per month, on average (a complete guesstimation). It started happening more and more frequently after I started practicing ADA. I'm not sure you were referring to me with the assumptions thing, but I thought you might be, so figured I'd say this. I don't say these things because I have heard them, I say them because I have experienced them and have helped countless others experience them.

I've had uncounted DILD's over the last 4 decades, and I can safely say that I never became lucid thanks to a dream-sign, RC, or other technique related shortcut. It used to drive me nuts when people would say, "This is all you gotta do," when I knew, in my experience at least, you needed something else. I call it self-awareness, King Yoshi calls it a feeling, CosmicIron calls it awareness, but regardless it is a conscous state of "more," and one technique alone just won't cut it. I blame all this on Stephen LaBerge, BTW, who accidentally popularlized shortcuts like dreamsigns, spotting oddities, and RC's when he published his MILD technique.... but they were only part of a fairly elaborate technique that included much daytime work. Now that I think of it, though LaBerge was desperate for that shortcut, that one step to lucidity, he still hasn't found it... but oh, the trail of debris he has left in his path! I'm not making any sense -- too tired tonight -- suffice it to say, CosmicIron, that I do agree that any single tool is not the answer, and I also agree that the popular view has come so firmly to believe that a single tool is all you need for lucidity -- just pick one, and you're there. I fear, King Yoshi, that ADA -- through no fault of your own -- has joined the ranks of those perceived single-tool answers.