Senses Initiated Lucid Dream Ssild

Originally Posted by CanisLucidus: CosmicIron, I have to thank you again for taking the time to share SSILD and answer all of the questions that come up about it. SSILD is what I used to finally get my 3rd lucid dream several months back, and I've used SSILD for the majority of my LD inductions since then. This thing just delivers. Even though I've had success since those early days with MILD (and very recently with WILD), this is the one that I always keep coming back to. So, many thanks for sharing it and for hanging around even controversy would occasionally flare up. I had a question on how best to employ SSILD when supplemented. I've recently been performing weekly trials w/ galantamine + choline during my WBTB. This has worked great for inducing SSILD-based WILDs, but I remember you discussing some time back that you use G+C for DILDs (via SSILD) with great success. I'm really interested in trying my standard DILD-via-SSILD, but G+C seemed to get me so buzzed that I have trouble falling asleep. That seems to leave WILD as the only option. In fact, if I don't include a tiny bit of melatonin with the G+C (an idea from Yuschak), I get pretty fierce insomnia for the morning sleep. I guess my question is what sensation I should be looking for when trying to hit SSILD when using G+C? Should I be able to quickly fall asleep, just like with typical SSILD? I'm wondering if the fact that I can't SSILD as quickly as usual is an indication that I need to cut back on my free choline levels (particulary by dropping back on Alpha-GPC). Or should I just be expecting SSILD to take longer with that ACh buzz going? I just know that when you are really in the SSILD "sweet spot", you can wake up from one LD, run a few cycles, and then hop right back into another one. That's an awesome feeling and I think that hitting a stride like that with high ACh levels would be mind-blowing. But it requires a really smooth, easy transition back into sleep. Have you encountered this particular roadblock yourself? -------- Thank you for this nice post. I feel appreciated and It definitely made the effort feel worthwhile! As for combining SSILD with supplements, I suggest reducing, if not completely eliminate, the time to stay awake during WBTB. Since it takes some time for G+C to cross the blood brain barrier, if you stay awake for too long, then add on top of that the time to do SSILD, you will end up running right into the stage where there are a lot of acetylcholine in your system! While doing so will increase your chance of having a WILD, your risk of getting insomnia is also much higher. With traditional method, this situation is almost inevitable. SSILD, on the other hand, is a perfect solution for this. I suspect this is how it works under the hood -- the repeated stimulation of the senses cause not only increased level of acetylcholine in the brain, but also activate them to some degree. After all, these are neurotransmitters and they won't do any good if they don't ever fire. The SSILD cycles create a need for heightened attention and awareness, which in turn causes the corresponding transmitters to be fired, with some delay. This latency is what enables us to fall asleep after the cycles, and then once the neurotransmitters accumulate and get fired, we reach heightened awareness within our dreams, thus creating DILDs and realistic FAs (being aware that we are sleeping). My personal experience confirms this quite well. My routine goes like this -- 1. Wake up after 4 hours. Without taking the supplements I usually do it after 5 hours. 2. Take the pills liberally. No need to worry about insomnia because it's gonna take a while for the stuff to cross the blood brain barrier. Sometimes I mix in L-Dopa and other stuff too. 3. Go to bathroom and then immediately return to bed. 4. Do 2 or 3 really fast cycles, say, a few seconds for each sense and totally don't care about the actual sensations. This is a very good warmup which helps you relax extremely quickly. in fact I find it much more effective than those traditional meditation-derived routines. 5. Do a few slow cycles. At this point you should find it easy to focus on the more internal sensations. For example, if you try very hard to see things in the very beginning, not only you won't see anything, chances are your eye muscle will strain and eventually make it difficult to fall asleep. Now do this after step 4 you will find it much easier to spot things in the darkness behind your closed eyelids without causing any strain. Same thing goes for hearing too. Keep in mind though -- do NOT focus too much at this stage! You shouldn't get attached to the sensations. You should allow your mind to drift and do not fight the desire to fall asleep. It's actually desirable for you to fall into sleep while doing this. If you wake up again without having any dreams, chances are you are either experiencing a super realistic FA or missed an entire dream cycle. Don't despair. Just do a couple more cycles and sleep again. Or, you could try to relax the back of your head and allow it to sink into your pillow, while focusing slightly on the hearing. With practice you can use this technique to induce instant WILD. There are more to this technique but that's an entirely different topic so I won't elaborate here. I hope this helps! Good luck and happy dreaming!

Originally Posted by realdealmagic: I will give this a go. Seems like some people are having success with it, so I'll try it out for a week or so How long does it take usually to get it going? Do people mostly get it first try, or does it take a few attempts? -------- It depends... If you do it correctly it is very possible for it to work the very fist time. I have seen numerous such success stories. However, there are many common mistakes that people tend to do, which will result in less than optimal result. Therefore I suggest you read the entire thread closely before attempting the exercise. There are LOTS of good information buried in this thread.

Originally Posted by MrOMGWTF: Hey CosmicIron, I'm testing this technique for 30 days, and writing down results of each day. I'm at the day 2 now. When I did the SSILD, It felt like I've been doing it for like one hour. It was because I think I felt asleep during second cycle and then woke up, and finished 3 more. Later then I had feeling that I can't fall asleep, but it was FA I believe. And suddenly I woke up for real, still being calm and relaxed, I started hearing high pitched noise in my head. It wasn't distracting at all. It sounded like this: Zippyshare.com - hi pitch.mp3 I think I misread your post, and I started to concentrate on that noise. It faded away. What was that? -------- Your observation was correct. Basically you slipped into sleep while doing the cycles and then wake up in an FA while still doing the cycles. This is not uncommon and you will eventually learn to differentiate it from real insomnia. As for the high pitched noise, it is a common sensation associated with phase entrance. When you hear that it is a good indication you are already in a phase. Try to slowly raise your hand (without using the muscles) and reach for your nose to do a nose pinch RC. Chances are you will succeed and you can just roll out of the bed to enjoy an OBE. Concentrating on it will cause it to go away and eventually wake yourself out of the trance. You can also try to observing it passively and raise its levels with just the right amount of mental effort, but that can take some practice. Anyway, you were REALLY REALLY close.

Originally Posted by MrOMGWTF: No word can express how thankful I am right now, so I'll just say thank you. You know, I don't believe in some OBEs and stuff like this. Is that the same as Lucid Dream? -------- IMHO, OBE really should be called out-of-body-like-experience. It's not exactly the same as LD, if we view them from the perspective of an "experience". However, the claim that OBE is the result of soul leaving body, or in astral projection terms the astral body being projected into different objective realities, is FALSE, IMO. I've had many thousands of OBE/LDs, and I have been able to observe the formation process of these experiences, as well as the subtle links between mind and body. Many people and authors go extra length to describe certain glorified experiences, in elaborate details often, but I feel the truth actually lies in the less glorious ones. Ones that they either ignored, never experienced, or deliberately camouflaged. This is one topic I wish to address eventually in the future but I won't do it here. I've received my fair shares of flames on this forum so I have no intention to attract more

Originally Posted by Venryx: Just had my own lucid dream from this! And not just a lucid dream, but also two false awakenings. (It even captured the details of my parent's room, which I rarely sleep in, and my younger brother sleeping next to me!) I recorded it all here: Lucid Dream 15 - Dream Journals - Lucid Dreaming - Dream Views Thanks so much, CosmicIron! -------- Thank YOU! I'm very happy to hear this technique worked for you. Your experience is another testimony of the technique's ability to produce frequent and extremely realistic FAs. Good luck and may you have more success! Feel free to ask if you have any questions regarding the technique. I will help as best as I can.

Originally Posted by Venryx: Fantastic! I had my first OBE, another lucid dream, and 4 more false awakenings using this technique. I recorded it all here: Lucid Dream 17 - Dream Journals - Lucid Dreaming - Dream Views I'm really starting to think this method has something significant going for it. I'm going to continue testing. -------- Very fasinating experience indeed! I enjoyed reading it. Thank you!

Originally Posted by Gooeythrough12: Thank you for this method! Im not sure, but i think i had an obe! I remember waking up at around 5:45 because my hamsters knocked something over and were making a lot of noise. I decided to try a method and chose this one. I remember pondering whether to go on my back or side, but i went with side and i don't even think i had time to much time to even do anything because i was so tired i just fell asleep. Now this is where it gets confusing. I remember being in my room and jumping while saying "im having an obe!" but it was in third person view, which you're not supposed to have during an obe. Then it suddenly moved to normal view and i screamed "I can fly now!" and i jumped through my wall and flew over some trees. Time passed and i was looking over and ocean at a city skyline. I decided to go back to my body, so i said "i want to go back to my body" and everything became very blurry and i believe i woke up. This seemed a little to dream like, and im not sure if had a lucid dream or an obe -------- LOL. It appears that you had relatively low lucidity during it, and that was probably due to the fact you fell asleep so quickly. However this is indeed an genuine SSILD experience. As for whether this is an OBE or LD, my opinion is that they are not all that different, certainly not in the sense of LDs being dreams while OBEs being soul leaving body or astral entity entering objective realities.

Originally Posted by iareHuuman: I tried this last night and the results were shocking. I've always had trouble sleeping (30 minutes until sleep on the best nights) and last night after several cycles I found myself getting extremely close to sleep, and even felt the "falling" sensation once. Next thing that happened was, I was extremely close, and then all of a sudden i felt my eyelids twitching really bad, and I noticed that my eyes had been open for the last minute or so. After trying for about 8 more cycles I finally fell to sleep. -------- Based on our experience, the eye-open sensation is frequently illusionary than real, which happens when you are on the verge of entering a dream. For example, one may think she has openned her eyes and even sees the ambient light, but in reality it is late at night and the bedroom is completely dark.

Originally Posted by Aks: Hi, I stumbled upon this info (SSILD technique) while browsing for meaning of certain dreams! I found it interesting and thought I'll try it for fun, as this was my first encounter with All the kinds of lucid dreaming techniques you people are talking about in short forms!! With little experience of meditation I tried your technique for the first time but I got distracted by my unchecked daily alarm. The very next time it WORKED!!! I was astonished with the INCREDIBLE experience!!! I experienced OBE > LD > OBE and FA which ultimately lead to real awaking!!! I would like to share my experience with a twist! In the hope of some contribution to further development Of this amazing and simple technique. I followed every step as you mentioned carefully till the point where you have recommended sinking into a pillow as I thought I am not going to naturally fall asleep and subconsciously kept on repeating the steps again. In the first step I was trying to imagine my girlfriend but mixed it with many other images in process. Still i was unable to sleep at this point i gave up! But thought of just giving it a try by falling asleep while Simply focusing on slide show of the pictures I wanted to experience in LD as step 1 followed by other steps As you mentioned and within few minutes I was In OBE (I think immediately after trying to roll out of bed! though I didn't encounter anybody I wanted to as in slide show!!) Floating in my room, with which I got so excited that in the rush and bit of fright woke up opened the door of my room and saw my sister studying only to wake up again for real! I have to queries, 1. How to make dreams more lucid? 2. How to guide LD to experience what you (consciously) want to experience in LD while using SSILD? Please let me know! I have also started experimenting with this proposition and would defiantly share With you all as I progress! Thank you for sharing this technique! A+ -------- Congratulations on your success! As for your questions, I have difficulty to provide you with a concise answer... there are entire books written just to answer these questions, LOL. I can give you a few tips though: To make dreams more lucid (I assume you meant to achieve higher lucidity) it is important to tell yourself that you are dreaming all the time. Set short-term goals of what you want to accomplish -- it's basically micro-managing. Even stuff like "running up that stair" should be treated like a goal, and immediately after accomplishing it you set another one. You can of course also try shouting in the dream, such as "More lucidity now!". This works sometimes, but not all the time. As for how to experience what you want to experience, it really has nothing to do with what technique you use to induce the LD. A lot of people tend to use the "direct" approach such as trying to manipulate dreams mentally. This is difficult because we don't really believe in our ability to accomplish the task. It is a lot easier to use the "indirect" approach. For example, opening a door might lead you to somewhere new. Reaching behind that corner might allow you pull out the person you wish to see. A trick I find particularly useful is to use your hands. That's right, if you want something to happen, just use your hand! For example, you can paint on a wall and make it become real. It's much easier than just using your imagination.

Originally Posted by lucsande: A couple of questions, CosmicIron. 1)In the new tutorial, you advocate for a some quick cycles, and after that you go for the longer ones. The longer ones have also gone from 20 seconds up to 30 seconds. Does it considerally improve the technic? 2) Supposing I lose count of how many cycles I have already done, should I estimate, do one more, or begin all over again and do 4 more cycles? 3) If during a cycle I realize, for instance, that staring at my closed eyelids has begun giving some minor response, like dots or patterns... should I move on to hearing, or should I continue the sight step until it develops into a lucid dream?: Thanks a lot, I am gonna try this technic out -------- My answers: 1. Yes the dual-mode of cycles considerably outperforms the original single-mode design. Use the quick cycles to help you relax quickly, and the slow ones to absorb you into the trance. You will find focusing on the sensations become MUCH easier and more comfortable after performing the quick cycles. 2. Just one more cycle should suffice. 3. I cannot stress this more -- do NOT go after the effects. You should NOT be doing the cycles for the sake of producing HIs. Just do the cycles for the sake of doing it, and once you are done you just go sleep. Having said that, should you indeed encounter HIs and other sensations, you can stop cycling and try mentally nudge them and once they respond to your mental command and become amplified you can try phase entrance right there.

Originally Posted by lucsande: One last question: why is this Senses Initiated Lucid Dream technic called SSILD, with double S? Just wondering... -------- Because the name SILD has been taken... I think it was "Song Initiated Lucid Dream". Not sure how effective it was, but nonetheless it was there long before SSILD.

Originally Posted by Bobblehat: Hi CosmicIron. I was wondering if you would consider writing a new SSILD tutorial? Now you have many more people's experiences (including successful and unsuccessful attempts!) that have improved the technique. -------- Hey Bobble I finally did it. The new tutorial can be found on my blog (DV wont let me edit this post): http://cosmiciron.blogspot.com

Originally Posted by lulapace: Also guys, I read somewhere on this thread (or maybe in the new tutorial...or maybe somewhere else entirely), that you shouldn't try talking to yourself when you find yourself in a LD. Now, I talk to myself constantly, when I'm alone IRL. Is it that much of a problem when you're in a LD? Also, will it make your subconscious super-friendly? Lula x EDIT: Ok, I've made my way through every post and I'm hoping to try this tonight, but I can't say for certain, because the past few nights I've woken up from terrible nightmares, and when that happens, I can't do anything more than curl up under the covers. That's why I'm going to bed so late, so hopefully when/if I wake up, it will be light and I won't be so easily creeped. If I do attempt SSILD, I'll let you know -------- Talking to yourself while in LD will likely cause the dream become unstable. As for subconscious being friendly or hostile... I think it actually partially depends on you. If you are friendly it will react accordingly. One way to counter nightmares and fearful creatures is to show friendliness and compassion toward them.

Originally Posted by BrandonBoss: Talking to yourself in an LD is fine. Saying things like "I'm dreaming" will keep you aware. I do it every day. -------- Brandon, you are right but I'd consider that a special case. In general though a lot of inner-conversation will result in pre-mature awakening or other instability within the dream.

Originally Posted by bluremi: I have tried this technique on and off about a dozen times without success. Then yesterday I read CosmicIron's blog with the excellent description and explanation of the technique, as well as the Q&A section and realized "Hey, I haven't been doing this exactly right." Last night I decided to follow the instructions on the blog to the letter and guess what happened?: Even though it's almost exactly what the instructions say to do, here's what I did along with what the experience was like: - Went to sleep at 1AM, set my alarm for 6AM (5 hours later) - When my alarm went off I answered a few emails and then got up to go to the bathroom and get a drink of water. This took 5 minutes. - I lay down on my back and did 6 quick cycles. They got progressively slower, so I might spend 3-5 seconds per sense in the first one but maybe 6-8 seconds per sense on the last. This happened naturally since I got more relaxed and absent minded. - Did 4 slow cycles, 30-40 seconds per sense. - Once I was done I tried to fall asleep, with difficulty. I did some reality checks to make sure I was really awake and then when they failed, I continued to just try to drift off to sleep. - At some point, I snapped awake. It was like someone tore a blindfold away from my face and a dream version of my bedroom appeared. I knew I was dreaming immediately, almost as if I was expecting it. Perhaps my mind was subconsciously conditioned to be waiting for a dream to happen (just like the guide says). Thanks CosmicIron, I will continue to try this technique following the instructions to the letter. I enjoy the approach here because usually while monitoring my senses I would be trying to monitor my INTERNAL senses (noises or visions in my head, vs real sensations picked up by my ears and eyes). Here I can just focus on what's really happening, it's much simpler and less stressful. -------- Great! That's classic! Now, one thing I forgot to mention in that tutorial is what to do when you try to fall asleep after performing SSILD. Sometimes it is difficult to fall asleep even when we become very drowsy during the exercise. I found this was caused by the "desire" to fall asleep. That's right, when we focus too much on falling asleep it just backfires. Think what you normally do when first going to bed? Do you try very hard to sleep? Perhaps you take your day-time problems with you and drift away while thinking about them? Perhaps you like to tell yourself a little story or do a little bit of role playing? Whatever you do you rarely focus on falling asleep itself. You should do the same after SSILD. There is no need to keep lucid dreaming as the last remaining thought. This is not MILD or mantra. Just do whatever you can to fall asleep ASAP and SSILD will take care of the rest

Originally Posted by lucsande: Hey, CosmicIron, have you already tested how this technic works by itself? I mean, withput the aid of dream journals and reality checks throughout the day? I was just thinking this technic has some similarities to Raduga's one (As you have already mentioned yourself) and apparently his technic works well all by itself. Maybe it is the case with SSILD too? -------- I do not use any other techniques nowadays, and SSILD gives me 100% success rate. I occasionally record dreams but only the interesting ones. I do not perform reality checks or other similar stuff such as all-day-awareness (I used to, many years ago) throughout the day as I believe they are not effective and based on false theories. In all, I believe SSILD can be used as an effective standalone technique. In fact, I believe it performs better without other techniques interfering. The only exceptions are WBTB, dream journaling, and perhaps mantras, which are supplementary techniques to begin with.

Originally Posted by DinoSawr: Cosmic: I recently had a bit of success with this technique (I have had 2 total instances,) but every other time I attempt the technique it seems that I either fall asleep or get distracted, even on the quick cycling stage! I don't feel like I'm too tired, but this distraction or falling asleep almost always seems to occur. Do you have any suggestions? I am still unsure what was different about the two times I had success with the cycling. Is it possible that I'm waking up at a wrong time and my body is trying to go back into NREM sleep instead of a dream? -------- That could well be the case. I suggest tweaking with your schedules a bit to see what the differences that makes. Also don't worry too much about distractions. Just stay as comfortable as possible, and if that means moving around then by all means do it. Remember, you don't have to feel anything during the cycles. Just do plenty of them and go to sleep. Magic happens after that

Originally Posted by lucsande: Even ADA? I had the impression everybody thought it to be the most effective supplement to lucid dreaming. -------- According to ADA, it increases your awareness during the day and thus making you more aware in dreams too. Now most people take this claim as a "fact" and rarely question it. However, I beg you to really think about it. Do we really carry day-time habits into our dreams? What if we don't? Do this: we all have many habits we do during the day, right? Pick a few and ask yourself, "Do I do that in my dreams?" Chances are you rarely, if ever, do them within your dreams! For example, you may like to sing to yourself whenever being alone, but you probably never do that in dreams. Now this may come as a surprise but if you look at what our dreams are meant to do then it's not surprising at all. Dreams are NOT meant to be a replica of our daily lives. They are complementary. Being complementary means it is more likely to contain content which we don't see often during the day, and day-time habits are certainly among these often omitted content. Moreover, dreams are highly symbolic. This means whatever occur in the dream do not necessarily share the same semantics with their day-time equivalent, and this include a wide range of things including the dream elements, events, and even your own behavior! If we can't bring our existing habits into dreams, what make you think a new routine will? Assuming ADA works as advertised, then an avid practitioner should be able to achieve lucidity all the time, in nearly every dreams (maybe even in the NREM ones), and all without any other aid. That's right, you have to have this level of consistent performance to really prove ADA's effectiveness. That may sound a little unfair, but many people have come to assume it being the ultimate "technique for the rest of your life" without even questioning the validity of its theories. Unfortunately, if you look closely at the reports from ADA practitioners you will rarely see such cases. Of course, what I've said is of my own opinion. I'm currently conducting a large-scale survey on our Chinese lucid dream forum. The goal of the survey is to verify the validity of the "developing some habits and do that also in your dreams" claim, which is the basis of some of the de-facto techniques people have assumed to be effective without questioning. Let's see how it goes, and let the numbers do the talk.

Originally Posted by BrandonBoss: That is what I thought at first, but I am almost 22 now and anytime I am in a dream I use those things at will. I don't really think about them too much anymore, but my dream self never got out of the habit, even though I don't have the intent. -------- Brandon, I highly suspect your example is a special case. I have a very interesting observation, both from my own experience and others, about dreams within which we develop and use super powers. It appears that we often have super-powered dreams (flying, telekinesis, mind control... you name it) when we are approaching lucidity. That's right, those failed LD attempt often turn into super powers in dreams, and that even happens to people who have no clue or interests in this kind of things! One hypothesis is that when we gain more self-consciousness within a dream, we start to want certain things to happen. If in normal dreams we are rookie actors and actresses who simply carry out the director (unconscious)'s will, then in this case we become the more creative ones and start to improvise a bit on our own. The dream world in turn respond to our mental command, and that manifest into super powers. As for carrying things into our dreams, I'm not ruling out everything. There are of course things that we can carry into our dreams, for example, those that cause impact, desires, anxieties, etc. However, they are not your regular "habits". And in fact, I believe their effectiveness diminishes once developed into habits. Now back to ADA. Trying to stay aware all the time is definitely not something that creates psychological impact. Even if it is, it differs from the the basic premise of ADA -- being highly aware of the surroundings can be trained into a "habit" and carried into dreams. LOL if that is true then a highly trained spy like Jason Bourn is most likely to have lucid dreams all the time, right? I have nothing against ADA or similar type of techniques. People are free to choose whatever works best for them. However, I am a little disappointed by the fact that many people consider ADA the ultimate, almost holy grail like, technique, without ever questioning the theories behind it. I don't doubt ADA can supplement your LD techniques, but it doesn't seem to me all that effective by itself. Yet its theories tend to suggest otherwise, and people also like to interpret it that way. If ADA was to truly meet this claim, then the benchmark should look like this -- consistent lucidity every night within every dream (including NREM ones) without the aid of any other techniques. Unfortunately, I have not seen a single person who can claim this, not even highly skilled Tibetan dream yoga practitioners.

Originally Posted by bluremi: CosmicIron, I think you are probably overgeneralizing with your doubts about ADA. I agree with you that it's not "the only technique you will ever need," and this applies for most people, but it is certainly very helpful for many reasons: People who develop a habit of permanent awareness (i.e. those who do so as a lifestyle unto itself, such as monks, meditation teachers, etc) do not "carry over" their habits into dreams. There is nothing to carry over, since there is an unbroken sequence of awareness from wake to deep sleep to REM sleep and back to wakefulness. Nsargadatta Maharaj often said that during the day he was aware of being awake, at night he was aware of being unconscious, and during dreams he was aware of being asleep and dreaming. Awareness is separate from consciousness, but that's a different topic for now... What makes ADA seem to be ineffective is that in order for it to work the practitioner needs true earnestness to pursue it as a lifestyle. It is difficult to make "awareness" into your default state of being. I have been meditating for years and I can't maintain it for more than an hour at a time, hence I have almost no chance of remembering to be aware in the midst of a dream, where I am even more distracted than usual. That said, practicing awareness does have supplementary effects that are very useful. The main one is that it improves your ability to sustain focused attention. When doing cycles you will find it easier to not drift away into daydreams immediately, and when you find yourself in the middle of a lucid dream you will find it easier to remember to stay lucid and not fall back into a "sleeping dream." While other techniques, including SSILD, are probably way more effective in both the short and long term, ADA is worth practicing for anyone as long as they have realistic expectations. Just my two cents. -------- I agree with you on the "awareness needs not to be carried over" statement, and I admit ADA can have other benefits when practiced earnestly. My argument really was centered on its claim and people's unquestioned belief of its effectiveness as a lucid dream induction technique. That said, I'd like to express my own opinion on the unbroken sequence of awareness theory. This kind of state is often mentioned in the context of Tibetan dream yoga, and is seen as one of the highest achievements. However, there are many different interpretations of this. One of which is what you mentioned, basically saying your awareness is never broken regardless being awake or asleep. Personally I think it is exaggerated though. In religions and occults people have that tendency to exaggerate things since there is often no way to prove them wrong. If you look at the dream yoga books, however, you will clearly see that they have many categorizations of dreams. And there are those which even the "masters" rely upon for inspirations and other purposes, and no, they are not aware of them being dreams while they are having them. I have met some of this world's highest ranking and most respected Tibetan buddhists, and they do not possess this kind of unbroken awareness. They have extremely high awareness for sure, but that does not extend automatically into their dreams -- bear in mind, dream yoga is only one of MANY practices in Tibetan buddhism. Same goes with the Taoists. While they claim even way more miraculous things, there is no denying that their most worshiped saints had dreams and no, they were not aware (e.g. the butterfly being me or me being the butterfly story by Chuang Tzu). We can also look at this from a more scientific angle. Our brain's functions rely on many different kinds of neurotransmitters. One of them is Acetylcholine which affects sensory perceptions and sustaining attentions. When we initially go to sleep the level of Acetylcholine drops to all-time low, and gradually rise as we gain more sleep. When we wake up in the morning and maintain wakefulness for a while (such as doing WBTB or SSILD), our body start releasing more of these in anticipation of increased awareness. At this point if we go back to sleep we have heightened awareness and often result in spontaneous LDs. Now assuming this "unbroken awareness" is achievable, it probably means an extremely high level of Acetylcholine in the system and gets maintained that way day and night. I dunno, is that even healthy? LOL. There is another version of this though. It is a higher state of consciousness which can be achieved through practice, and invoked on demand. It is an entirely different state of consciousness from our typical ones, and the kind of awareness one gains through it is beyond words... you can call it unbroken, but it is also vast, thorough, infinite, and much more... It is anything but earthly, and is fundamentally different from our normal definition of "awareness". Now this, is what I believe to be the true goal of dream yoga, and I can attest it from personal experience. I hope my criticism on ADA is not offending anyone. I always feel this is a fascinating subject and worth more in-depth study and research. What I have said are based on my rather un-scientific experience and observations so they probably don't have much value. This is why I'm conducting this survey on our forum. Hopefully by the end of it we will have some statistics to either back up or undermine my hypothesis. Either way I'm happy.

Originally Posted by lucsande: One of the things acetylcholine (ACh) does is to help the arousal of the body. Other is to enhance the sensory perceptions... If its levels really increase throughout sleep, than it is, as you said,a probable explanation of how SSILD could work. After the cycles, we probably estimulate even more AChto be produced and it could really be making lucidity easier. However, I don't understand how meditation right before the cycles could be prejudicial. I mean, the cycles themselves are a sort of meditation. Besides that, meditation helps with awareness, what could increase ACh too, right? CosmicIron, do you have any idea why meditation has no impact - or even a negative impact - on SSILD? I know that I, with all my lack of knowledge, am saying some bullshit and am also really lost here. However I believethat getting to the core of the technic, understanding the science behind it, is important and could help us to make it even more effective and adaptable for individual needs... -------- I noticed that some of the effects generated by SSILD felt very similar to the ones resulted from taking supplements such as Galantamine. This got me thinking, and after more experiments I formulated a hypothesis: By repeatedly stimulating the various senses, we create a need for the body to release more ACh. However, this is very subtle and does not have immediate effect, so there is going to be a slight delay before ACh level gets raised. Now we know if performed correctly, SSILD can help one to fall asleep pretty quickly, or in some case put us into a trance. This, combined with the latency of the rising ACh level, gives us the spontaneous LDs and OBEs after we fall asleep from SSILD. Of course, just the stimulation of the senses might not generate sufficient amount of ACh, this is why we also typically need WBTB. I notice in the other post you mentioned that your SSILD exercise did not give you any result. I think this is due to insufficient stimulation. The trick with SSILD is really to find the perfect balance between enough stimulation and losing sleep. We want to stimulate the senses sufficiently while also maintain the trance so we can fall to sleep quickly. I hope this helps. Edit: Oh, the meditation... Assuming meditation also generates ACh, then doing so will cause a sudden increase of it, which destroys the "latency" mechanism of SSILD. Also keep in mind that we normally do meditation before going to sleep. This is at a time when ACh level is at the lowest, thus it is counter productive. We need ACh level to be low so we can sleep quickly and get enough NREM sleep.

Originally Posted by Xanous: So I love SSILD. It has given me more lucids than any other technique (even a couple nREM lucids) but I have run into a few snags. I don't know if I am getting bored with it or what my deal is but the effectiveness seems to be wearing off. One potential problem may be that I have begun to devolve insomnia after any WBTB. Sometimes I use LDS that cause wakefulness, but even when I don't, I have issues getting back to sleep. That's a separate issue but it is hindering my focus on SSILD cycles. Could I be getting to used to WBTB? Also, one thing that was great for SSILD was my almost immediate HI when falling asleep. That seems to be not as as it once was. I know its the action of each cycle not the effect but I think it causes me to lose interest rather quickly. Any ideas? -------- I have had similars feelings myself so I can easily relate to what you are saying. This is what I do: 1. Take a break from SSILD and LD in general. Use the next few days to improve dream recall instead -- record dreams upon each awakening, for example. In the event I feel fully rested and would like to try some LD, I usually use visualizations. 2. Take some supplements. My typical ones are Melatonin 1-2 hours prior to sleep, and Galantamine+Choline Bitartrate after 4-5 hours of sleep. After taking the later combo I immediately return to bed to work on a few focused SSILD cycles and fall asleep as quickly as possible afterward. This usually results in spontaneous OBE and last a long time. Doing this will make you feel motivated and in turn help make SSILD more effective later on. 3. I also alter between two different SSILD styles throughout the week: Style 1: Long WBTB + focused SSILD + hell with insomnia attitude Style 2: No WBTB + multiple sessions of quick and relaxed SSILDs performed upon each awakening. Style 2 can fix the insomnia problem for you. Hope this helps.

Originally Posted by lucsande: For getting more stimulation, what could I do? Just try to wake up for longer amounts of, trying to move more around, get more light, more body sensations... Stuff like that. Or are there other suggestions? One more thing: when you wake up, doyou stay awake for a predetermined amount of time, or by now you already have developed a feel for when drowziness and alertness are most efficiently balanced for getting back to bed? Besides, you have any information about wether meditation does increase ACh? Because, just like with the cycles, meditation usually gets me relaxed and drowsy instead of wide awake. Could it be that both meditation and the cycles stimulations have a couple of minutes of lag? -------- I guess what you suggested for getting more stimulations could work, except perhaps they will wake you up completely, LOL. Personally the more effective ones are: 1. Staying awake a little longer, say, 10 minutes. 2. Stay focused during the slow cycles of SSILD. I know, generally we advise people to lose focus and get immersed in random thoughts, but that is to help enter the trance state more easily and avoid losing sleep. Once you get the hung of it you can try to raise the focus level a bit so you get sufficient stimulation at the same time. I don't really follow a precise schedule. Sometimes I feel lazy and I hardly get up at all, and sometimes I get distracted and can stay on my iPad for an hour or even more. When I find it hard to fall asleep I usually force a phase entry by shifting the "focus point", which usually allows me to enter a dream state immediately. As for meditation... You do know that proper meditation is not supposed to make you feel drowsy right? It's supposed to put you into a calm yet fully conscious state. Unfortunately, falling asleep while meditating is probably what pretty much everyone does, LOL. God knows what neurotransmitters get released while we are doing that!

Originally Posted by Xanous: Yeah! I think that's good advice. I like it. Thanks. I probably use Sunday and Monday nights for stlye #2 to re-coop since I typically use Galantamine only on the weekend. Then, if I feel up to it start style #1 back up after. I usually have a period of insomnia with Galantamine. Would it be useful to do continuous cycles while waiting to sleep or would that keep my mind too active? -------- It takes approximately an hour before Galantamine crosses the blood-brain barrier. Therefore, if you encounter insomnia right after taking it it's probably psychological. In order to avoid colliding into the Galantamine effect I usually return to bed right away and start working on SSILD. A few quick cycles should calm you down easily and follow with a couple of very focused slow cycles to see if you can spot some hypnagogic sensations. After that just roll over and go to sleep -- don't try too hard though, you don't want to focus on falling asleep because that will just backfire. You don't have to fall asleep with getting an LD as the last thought on your mind. It will just happen. Have faith!

Originally Posted by BrandonBoss: Hmmm... makes sense to me. I became lucid 10 times before ever trying to in my life. This seemed random enough. Normally nightmares, nothing like realizing you are in a nightmare and not knowing how to wake yourself up. Took me a minute or so. Or when playing too much with the snooze bar, haha. The constant waking up and going to sleep caused me to go lucid a few times. I think the Jason Bourne part makes a lot of sense as well, Because when you said that I thought "why would that make him lucid?" And then I thought, "oh! His tech basically is ADA without the intent to LD. Makes sense!" I do not think of ADA as the god of techniques, I have always thought that all techniques work just as well. meaning that they can all get you lucid. The difference is that some might not work for you as well as others. SSILD is pretty much looking to prove me wrong, it looks like the success rates are ridiculously high. Do you find it harder to SSILD if you go to bed late even if you are getting enough sleep? Or if you are running on less sleep than normal from the previous day? One of my big things for LDing is "never go to sleep too tired" Because I think that when you sleep without enough sleep, your mind goes into a deeper sleep most of the time making you less aware. My problem now is that I can't prove myself wrong on this because my confidence lowers a lot. So it would be nice to change my expectations on this and raise my confidence. -------- I'm glad you had an open mind on this subject. I really think it is time for the lucid dreaming community to start drawing more inspirations from modern science instead of embracing on ancient/occult systems without much preservation. There are also a lot of myth, exaggerated or misrepresented facts, camouflage, and so on in the field of lucid dreaming and related topics, and I think it is time to look at them from more critical perspectives -- revealing them instead of adding to them. I used to think the same as your "all techniques work just as well" statement, but not anymore. In our lives there are better and worse approaches, routes, methods, and so on, why should "lucid dreaming techniques" differ? In fact I think some of the techniques are downright tedious, overrated, and misleading. This is kinda like in martial arts. Before UFC put them in a ring, everyone claimed "there is no better technique, it all depends on the person who is using the technique." And guess what? Brazilian Jiu Jitsu simply proved them wrong and made laughingstocks of so many self-claimed "masters." It was only then the martial arts community started looking at "traditions" from a whole new perspective. Bad for the old schools, but certainly good for the advancement of martial arts in general. As for your question. I do find it in general harder to LD (not just SSILD) if I go to bed late or not being well rested. There are exceptions of course. There are various conditions that are well-suited for LD and OBE to occur, and REM sleep is just one of these. It is probably the most common ones though.

Originally Posted by Matt1: I was wondering if maybe it would be okay to get out of bed and maybe do the cycles in a comfy chair or seat you can relax fully in, then go straight back to the bed and fall asleep while doing the cycles again? This seems to me like a good way to make sure all the cycles, including the long ones, get done, before falling asleep. What do you think? -------- Very interesting... no one hasn't tried that yet.