Say Good Bye Short Lds

Originally Posted by nina: Dream Stabilization and Clarity Tutorial - Lucid Dreaming - Dream Views -------- I'm not sure why you replied nothing except with a link to another article. My guess is that you are implying my post is a duplicate of effort and thus having little value. I read that article carefully. While I agree with the basic principles, I think it is far from being the end-all solution and could definitely benefit from additional ideas. For example, the crawling technique is a much better stabilization technique than hand rubbing. The principle which one should not be thinking about the physical body is especially critical during an OBE... And there are many more if you read my post carefully. Also I do not agree with some of the techniques recommended by that article, to name a few: 1. Hand rubbing has only short-term effect and should not be used extensively. It is fine as an emergency tool, but it's scope of effects is often limited. In fact, prolonged hand rubbing often results in feeling the physical body and waking up. It is not nearly as effective as floor crawling. 2. Falling back is dangerous because it overlaps with the sleeping physical body, which almost certainly results in FAs for most users. 3. Spinning has similar side effect as falling back, only marginally better. For scene change, it normally requires the user to close eyes, which is very dangerous. Closing eyes easily result in FAs or loss of visuals.

For some reason I cannot edit my post. I will add this sentence here: •Treat small tasks as immediate goals. For example, walking down that stair should be considered a "goal"; touching and examine that object should be considered a "goal". After a goal is completed, you should immediately set up another, no matter how trivial it seems. In fact, try not to specify grand goals too often.

Originally Posted by nina: Well you sure are quick to make assumptions. I don't think anything you said is a "duplicate", nor did I imply this. I was running late for work and thought you'd appreciate a link to a tutorial I had written if you hadn't already seen it. Also, you clearly did not read it carefully as you claim, as all three of your points were addressed in what was written. (You have a lot of good info to share, don't be so defensive, and I apologize if my intentions were unclear with the link I posted. Also I would be happy to add some of your input to the tutorial if you would like me to.) -------- Well then, that clarifies it, and I also apologize for being defensive. One of the reasons for my being unnecessarily sensative is the "MODERATOR" label under your user ID. It kinda made me think your comment was rather authoritative and represent the general consensus of the board... my bad... Please feel free to add some of the stuff into your article as I agree it is a more well-written piece. I was just too lazy to explain things in detail

Originally Posted by Sageous: I don't know, CosmicIron... I read your OP, and, though I imagine all the things you say to do would work fine, I'm still a little puzzled. Wouldn't it be better to have an exciting, interesting, enlightening, etc.-ing LD for just a few seconds than to go through all that rigamarole to make the dream last a few moments longer? I'd rather experience the joy of a short LD than crawl around on the floor, shout, or touch small things to make it last longer. Is there a "length of LD" contest out there that I hadn't heard of? I don't know about you, but for me quality is always better than quantity. Another quick note about lengthening an LD that you may have left out: you can do all the crawling you want, but if you lack proper self-awareness, your LD will fade regardless. Also, I pretty much break every one of your rules in every LD and never practice stabilizing techniques, yet my LD's are often very long (lasting hours, sometimes). How can this be? Could it be because I'm simply enjoying the moment rather than being concerned about how long that moment lasts? So I guess your advice is solid enough, but I fear it's missing the whole point of LD'ing: To have fun, learn, and grow. To make it a chore to stay lucid might be to make LD'ing a miserable thing, rather than the wonder it is. Think about it. Just my opinion; take it or leave it. -------- How can you "enjoy" a lucid dream if it only lasts minutes, if not seconds, especially after you have put in great effort to make it happen? I simply do not see the logic behind that. Let's face this – pre-mature termination of lucid dreams and abrupt false awakenings during an LD is common among even very experienced lucid dreamers. The stabilization routines provided here do not take long to execute, but they will immensely extend the duration of the dream, and at the same time, help increase the user's lucidity, self-awareness (which as you pointed out is an important factor for the overall experience), and quality of the dream constructs. From your saying you are essentially declaring the entire subject (extending lucid dreams durations) unnecessary, which I have to disagree. The truth is, not all LDers have 2k+ lucid dreams in their life, and they can certainly benefit from every bit and pieces of information which may help them extend the duration of their precious lucid dreams. As a side note, I do not know how you manage having very long LDs while NEVER practice any stabilizing techniques. To my knowledge, even the most experienced LDers need the help of stabilization techniques; they just sometimes perform them intuitively, like a second nature. I have had many thousands of LDs throughout 20+ years of research and practice, yet I cannot make such bold claim that stabilization techniques are unnecessary. If you have a secret to that then please share with us. BTW, I have never seen ANYONE, despite the fact that I have worked with thousands of LDers, with the ability to have LDs that last "hours" – from a physiological point of view it is simply not possible. Again, you must have a secret if what you are saying is accurate.

Originally Posted by Hukif: Agreed with Sageous. Plus I find a few problems with some of your techs. For example, focusing on something external may make the dream seem more real but it will also make the dream body go away for some people and end their lucidity or they won't enjoy it like normal. Even more so since you say rational thought should be avoided... what if someone is having a lucid nightmare? Abandon logic and suffer the lucid instead of ground yourself and evade the nightmare? Then there is the problem of physical body, I find it that not only it becomes easier to control my own dream body if I am aware of my waking body, but also if I do wake up inducing a DEILD/WILD is very easy because of said awareness. -------- Let me first say this: lucid dreams are very personal experiences, thus they may differ greatly among individuals. Something that works or not works for you may not apply to everyone, and vice versa. Therefore, what I said in this article may not be useful to you in particular, but that does not mean it won't work for others. In fact, I've taught thousands of people how to LD and these are exactly the same tips I have been giving them, and the results have been positive. Besides, most of these tips are not my original inventions, and many are being used widely. Focusing on external objects does NOT make dream body go away. Lack of physical and visual stimulus does that, and that's exactly the problem addressed by stabilization techniques. Another special case is when experiencing higher state of consciousness, but that's different topic. As for restraining rational thoughts -- people often confuse lucidity/awareness with logics. A high degree of awareness will give you a quality LD, and often lights the path to higher state of consciousness. However, a high degree of logics will likely just return you to the waking state. Being aware of the physical body is the most common method used in astral projection for returning to one's physical body. For example, many users accidentally wake up themselves when trying to "open their eyes" in the event of disappearing visuals. Why does that happen? Very simply, when they thought about their eyes, which really there is no such a thing in a lucid dream, their focus returns to their physical body in an instant. Sometimes this result in false awakenings, but people may have difficulty identifying them. Also I do not understand what you are saying about inducing DEILD/WILD. What is the point of that if you are already having a lucid dream?

Originally Posted by Hukif: Uh, the using senses is common stabilization yes. And I said some people, I know some guys who can't go all into full-detail visuals right after the dream start or it will go away. . -------- I'm not sure I understand what you meant. As for logic, you don't need it to identify a nightmare. Simply knowing that you are dreaming will do the trick. And no I'm not referring to keeping mind calm. I'm referring to "awareness". Whether AP is real or not is not the issue. The fact that by focusing on your physical body wakes you up is what I'm trying to explain here. Again, I'm not sure I understand what you meant by saying "a lot of people who had never heard of such a thing as dream/waking body". It is common for lucid dreamers to worry about inadvertently moving their physical bodies and thus waking themselves up, yet that mere worry would cause it to happen because of the focus shift to the physcial body. The eye problem is meant to be an example. Same applies to other body parts such as hands, feet, and etc. People often wake up from using too much force or longer range of motions because they suddenly begin to worry about involving their physical bodies. Your case of the girl with insomnia and accumlated REMs creating long LDs is interesting, but you understand that is a special case don't you? And as for saying I'm making sweep statements I find it to be not only untrue, but disturbing. The whole point of the article is trying to help the average LDers to have a better experience. What is wrong with that? You can disagree with my techniques, but declaring the entire subject to be useless fits the very description of a "sweep statement."

Originally Posted by mcwillis: I don't agree with everything that everyone has been discussing here. There is a lot of open ground regarding lucid stabilty and techniques. I have personally asked CosmicIron to stay as he has made a great contribution to the forum with his SSILD induction. -------- Thank you mcwillis, I appreciate your message. The SSILD thread will stay and I will do whatever I can to help those in need, albeit probably outside the scope of the forum. If I do make refinement to the technique, as it is still evolving, I will come back to update the thread. Ou have my word on that. Again, thank you and many good wishes.

Originally Posted by nina: No one here claims to be a "grand master". You were the one coming here claiming to be the expert. If you are always going to be so overly defensive about sharing your ideas and experiences, and become frustrated when those ideas are questioned, then you should probably just stick to teaching newbs how to LD, as you have been, because they don't have the knowledge and experience, and will accept your quasi-expertise without question. Good luck. -------- This is my last reply. Lucid dreaming is a relatively under-developed territory. To make it go beyond the cult status we need as many "newbs" as possible, and to make them at least taste some success. If you guys are truly the experts, in comparison to my "quasi-expertise", then please help those poor individuals, instead of just showing off your lucid dreaming prowess and how advanced your skills are to the point it is beyond any tangible techniques. Teach your stuff to thousands of people, make them your equal. If you do that you have my full respect and apology. Otherwise, go ahead turn this thread into your showroom on how your lucid dreaming expertise is so great that it defys the limit of physiology. Do it as you wish. I'm gone.