Lding Is Not Supernatural, There Are No Shadow Men. Its Jus

I've had guns pointed at me and threatened on more than one occasion. I've never felt more a more intense fear than when experiencing SP and seeing the "shadow people". Once you are experiencing SP, "objective reality" doesn't matter. What you intellectually see as "real" (claiming it's biology, blah blah blah) is not what you experience. We are men and women STUCK in our bodies and therefore we are both objective and subjective. You cannot escape a subjective experience. If you discount subjectivity you are half a person. Objective reality is only half of the story. Edit: another commenter put it perfectly: "just because something exists in yor imagination doesn't make it false. Its real in its own way". I LEARNED this from experiencing SP. I couldn't discard one of the most intense experiences of my life as "not real" because it had only happened to me.

Yeah this is the real question in my opinion. Science still has no clear answers for why we dream. The nature of consciousness is still a huge mystery, as is, you know, the universe. So it's entirely possible that our dreaming life is something spiritual, and understanding the neurotransmitters and psychobiology involved in dreaming does not negate that.

"Reality" also has to do with the biology of our brains, but we don't argue that it's not real. Without our five senses to interpret and filter it, the world would just look like noise. Understanding the biology of something does not take away from the potential for it to be much more complex - or yes, even spiritual - than we allow for. Assuming you have all the answers about this little speck of the universe and the complexity that exists within it is short sighted.

I agree, it's entirely possible that there is nothing spiritual, or 'supernatural' going on. However, it's also possible that there is. I think there is probably a lot happening in the world that our five senses can't pick up on, and a lot we don't know. I don't necessarily consider those things to be supernatural...I think they are part of this world and universe but aren't accessible to us.

I dont think making assumptions like that are really justified because we really dont know why we dream or what that place is when were sleeping. It could very well be a different realm our consciousness is transported to with entities. We dont know so saying we know what this is its just your mind sending off different signals dosnt prove anything other than when your sleeping your mind sends off signals.

>Like it or not, you have no proof that there is anything spiritual, unless your definition of 'spiritual' is something other than the way common people use it. And in that exact same vein, you cannot prove there isn't any kind of spiritual experience. In the same way that we can't prove that something is spiritual, you can't prove it's not. Spirituality is relative. So you can't really use spirituality in a logical conversation about LD, sure. But, you can't say, definitively, that it isn't possible. That's just close-minded.

"We are not in this Universe, we are the Universe. We are a way for the cosmos to know itself, and we are the Universe looking back at itself to understand itself better." - Carl Sagan. Dr. Hawking said that it's possible that an advanced species in this Universe created the Universe. Ultimately the Universe finding a way to create itself. That they went further than we have gone, which we found the Universe as a microscopic ball of pure energy before it expanded (the Big Bang), and found the cause of this singularity. Came to the profound and shocking conclusion that they were the ones who created this singularity. They figured out time travel, traveled back in time to create the singularity which led to the Big Bang. That 6 of some of the main ingredients for a Universe could be Time, Space, Life, Consciousness, Intelligence and Technology. And this is a possibility for something to come from "nothing." "It is absurd for religion to persecute men like Newton, Galileo and Darwin. But is equally absurd for scientists to say there is no God." - Albert Einstein "The mind is like an iceberg, with 1/1000th of its bulk above water." - Freud "I know nothing." - Plato "There are known unknowns and unknown unknowns." - Unknown source "There may be nothing at all behind this Universe, but at the same time, there is much more to it all." - Unknown source "We don't know a millionth of one percent of anything in this world." - Edison And Einstein said, as well as many Physicists, that he didn't believe the brain of the homo sapien was able to grasp the languages in which this Universe was written, whether there was a creator or not. Einstein also said "Imagination is more important than knowledge." And you said Lucid Dreaming is not a spiritual experience. Well then you must not be doing the Lucid Dreaming thing right. You must be doing shallow meaningless stuff in Lucid Dreams. If you allow it, Lucid Dreaming can be very much a spiritual experience. Like Buddha said, "Peace comes from within, do not seek it without." And Carl Jung, Psychologist, said "He who looks outside, dreams. He who looks inside, awakes." And Einstein said "Look deep within nature and you'll understand everything better." Have you ever decided to meditate in a Lucid Dream?? I highly suggest you do if you haven't. Also one thing I learned to do is study the dream world when in an LD. Look at the clouds moving, wonder how they are moving, why they are moving at a specific speed in a specific direction. Look at how detailed things are like people's gowns and curtains and blankets/quilts. Go up to dream characters and shake their hands and talk to them, and ask the deepest questions, the most profound Philosophical questions I can ask. I shake their hand to feel their grip, the pressure, and the warmth. I asked one dream character "Are you God? are you an angel? a devil? Or are you just me?" and they replied "It doesn't matter who I am." Asked one dream character if they believed in God, they replied "It doesn't matter what I think, it matters what you think." and asked another dream character "What happens when we die?" and she told me "Everything will be alright." and smiled. Asked another dream character where I was, if this dreamworld was real in any sense or not, even though Philosophers and Physicists all over the world question what reality really is and what makes something "real" and if our understanding of "reality" is correct and if correct, how accurate? Anyway, that dream character told me "you know, but you don't know, you're not supposed to be here." I have deeply analyzed the dreamworld in LD's and the more I look, ask, discover, question, wonder, experiment, the more of a spiritual experience it becomes. Now like I said before, meditating in a Lucid Dream... I can't even get into what that experience is like and what it has done for me. But no.... Lucid Dreams are not a spiritual experience.... Not to mention, you sounded bitter in this post/thread. "A fool will tell you they know everything, while a wise man will tell you they know nothing." Also, as far as spirituality goes, Einstein said Philosophy is a spiritual subject matter, which it is. And believed it is what gave birth to religion, theology, mathematics, and science. And said Science without spirituality is lame. "The meaning of life is to find to the meaning of life, both for the individual and Mankind as a whole." -- Einstein Also, "The goal is neither height nor depth, but the center."

Yes, anything that "happens" can't be considered "supernatural". But OP also says it's "just biology" which is a bit of an understatement, as far as the brain's biological performance, lucid dreaming is one of the least understood, most interesting, most out of line with normal biology. Yes, technically everything in the universe is "just biology" or "just chemistry" or "just physics", but saying that shouldn't be a reason to set aside an area of study because there is no mystery. I think that's the key take away here. Yes it's just biology but it's poorly understood biology with lots of mystery. This is more of a reason to study it, not a reason to not worry about it.

"Intelligence is to know what to say. Wisdom is to know when to say it." Something you may need to start practicing because your post and comments seem bitter to a degree. I don't know what it is that you are dealing with inside, or if you even really know, but, work on it. Like i said before "Peace comes from within. Do no seek it without." and "He who looks outside, dreams. He who looks inside, awakes."

That's your opinion of it, and that's great you've been able to make up your mind about something that many people struggle with and deal with on a regular basis. For all we know, something occurs in our brain when we lucid dream, that allows us to be more sensitive to different 'dimensions', allowing us to see things we'd otherwise not see. One of the worst things someone could do is advertise their theory as if its the eight answer especially when the topic is something like lucid dreaming or shadow beings.