Lding Is Not Supernatural, There Are No Shadow Men. Its Jus

No, I have never experienced anything "spiritual"... This is just a dream we can control, there is nothing to suggest that this is some sort of spirit world, or connection to another dimension. There is nothing to support the idea that this is some "different world" we are transported to, or have anything to do with our "souls" or spirit folk, or shadow men, or anything like that. the evidence suggests what my OP said, that's it. And no, I have never experienced anything remotely spiritual in a LD, that's because ITS JUST A DREAM. One that I can control and live in, due to my mind making the world around me. More so then the other world my mind makes, that we are both in now, that we share.

What is short sighted, is thinking that this is some magic dimension that you get connected to when you sleep, or shadow people are some spirit folk watching you as you dream, when there is nothing at all to support this, and all evidence suggests its just a dream, and figments of hallucinations before you start to dream.

Wow, now you're diagnosing strangers' mental illnesses over the internet? I'm curious why you even posted here if the only thing you wanted to hear was a circlejerk on your opinion. Yeah, you deserve a big pat on the back for proving yourself better than all of us crazies. Congrats

Im not saying this or that is really happening its a mystery. But your claiming that there is nothing behind it for certain when you have no evidence of that. We know the scientific processes behind but dont truly understand whats happening. Thats like saying we know what consciousness is because because theirs certain signals going off in the brain and a reaction occurs. Im not saying i believe in one thing or the other, im just saying you cant say this is whats happening i have all the answers because that extremely ignorant. Step off your high horse.

Okay sure, but I'm not saying, "LD is totally spiritual" and no one here is saying that. But your argument seems to me to be, "LD is totally not spiritual." And most of the people replying to you are only trying to say, "LD could be spiritual." For you to shut down other people and say they're wrong is just being a dick in that scenario. Unless I'm completely missing something here. In which case fuck, my bad.

thank you for this post. I had enough of this reductionist scientists saying they can explain the universe. Its like saying we know what consciousness is because certain signals go on in the brain and a reaction occurs. Completely silly. Not against science but its time to realize that science cant explain everything.

Who knew this guy had answer to all the worlds mysteries? so wise one where did the materials that made up the Big Bang come from? Just curious since you seem to know answer to thing that none of us know like why we dream. Sure its likely not to be spiritual but who are you to say it not with no evidence to back that up.

To get so dogmatically hung up on the "science" of a subjective personal experience, teetering on the absolute fringe of experience, is to miss the point of the experience to begin with. The strict scientism seen in this sub wrongfully and dismissively undercuts the deeply personal, subjective, and frankly bizarre experience of dreaming and waking. As Indian sage Ramana Maharshi said: "The dream is short and life is long; *besides that there is no difference*. **They are both products of the same Mind.**" I mean, the first exercise that many are taught in lucid dreaming is to notice the dream-like qualities of waking and the life-like qualities of the dream. This experience teeters on the very fringes of human experience, in a world where science cannot definitively measure things, and while discussion of neuro-physical mechanics serve a purpose, they do not definitively and decisively close the book on subjective experience. This makes me think of a passage from [the introduction to Robert Anton Wilson's book "The Cosmic Trigger"](http://rawilson.com/trigger1.html): >My attitude is identical to that of Dr. Gribbin and the majority of physicists today, and is known in physics as "the Copenhagen Interpretation," because it was formulated in Copenhagen by Dr. Niels Bohr and his co-workers c. 1926-28. The Copenhagen Interpretation is sometimes called "model agnosticism" and holds that any grid we use to organize our experience of the world is a model of the world and should not be confused with the world itself. Alfred Korzybski, the semanticist, tried to popularize this outside physics with the slogan, "The map is not the territory." Alan Watts, a talented exegete of Oriental philosophy, restated it more vividly as "The menu is not the meal." >Belief in the traditional sense, or certitude, or dogma, amounts to the grandiose delusion, "My current model" -- or grid, or map, or reality-tunnel -- "contains the whole universe and will never need to be revised." In terms of the history of science and knowledge in general, this appears absurd and arrogant to me, and I am perpetually astonished that so many people still manage to live with such a medieval attitude. > .... >Most philosophers have known, at least since around 500 B.C., that the world perceived by our senses is not "the real world" but a construct we create -- our own private work of art. Modern science began with Galileo's demonstration that color is not "in" objects but "in" the interaction of our senses with objects. Despite this philosophic and scientific knowledge of neurological relativity, which has been more clearly demonstrated with each major advance in instrumentation, we still, due to language, think that behind the flowing, meandering, inter-acting, evolving universe created by perception is one solid monolithic "reality" hard and crisply outlined as an iron bar. >Quantum physics has undermined that Platonic iron-bar "reality" by showing that it makes more sense scientifically to talk only of the inter-actions we actually experience (our operations in the laboratory) ; and perception psychology has undermined the Platonic "reality" by showing that assuming it exists leads to hopeless contradictions in explaining how we actually perceive that a hippopotamus is not a symphony orchestra. >The only "realities" (plural) that we actually experience and can talk meaningfully about are perceived realities, experienced realities, existential realities -- realities involving ourselves as editors -- and they are all relative to the observer, fluctuating, evolving, capable of being magnified and enriched, moving from low resolution to hi-fi, and do not fit together like the pieces of a jig-saw into one single Reality with a capital R. Rather, they cast illumination upon one another by contrast, like the paintings in a large museum, or the different symphonic styles of Haydn, Mozart, Beethoven, and Mahler. >Alan Watts may have said it best of all: "The universe is a giant Rorschach ink-blot." Science finds one meaning in it in the 18th Century, another in the 19th, a third in the 20th; each artist finds unique meanings on other levels of abstraction; and each man and woman finds different meanings at different hours of the day, depending on the internal and external environments.

What do you even mean by spiritual? Spiritual doesn't mean supernatural. If anything, I would say it means working with phenomena that are, at our current capability of observation, subjective. Such things are at the moment outside the scope of hard objective science. In fact, you can never find proof that the whole world, including all the laws of nature, isn't simply your subjective dream. I find lucid dreaming deeply spiritual, but that does not mean it would break the apparent rules of this world in any way.

If neurons are firing in your brain, then you are going to experience something. Thus its safe to say that dreaming is the result of such said neurons firing. On the flip side, there is NOTHING to suggest this is a spirit world or a supernatural affair. As for why we dream, that is not the same thing as what causes it.

Spiritually, as in souls, god, supernatural natures. Yes we can never find proof that the whole world, including all the laws of nature, isn't simply a subjective dream. But we do have proof that shadow men and LDs are not some spirit world, or mystical creatures, in regards to the REAL world we live in, regardless if that real world is a dream itself, as a separate entity.